About the author

Joseph Natoli

Joseph Natoli

Joseph P Natoli is a retired college professor and author of numerous books on culture and politics. He is a member of the editorial collective of BAD SUBJECTS, the oldest political online magazine on the web. He writes regularly for a number of political and pop culture online magazines, including SENSES OF CINEMA, BRIGHT LIGHTS FILM JOURNAL, POPMATTERS, AMERICANA, DANDELION SALAD, GODOT, TRUTHOUT

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60 Comments

    1. 1.1

      Jeff Chelf

      Are you sure you want to go there again.

    2. 1.2

      Einar Nordgaard

      Jeff Chelf yes 🙂 bring it on communists

  1. 2

    Richard Ivans

    Joe,
    =================
    ANDREW SOLOMON’S UNTRUTH
    Andrew says that last week (Oct 5ish) EACH of the Republican candidates declared “..we should deal with school shootings by providing aggressive treatment of people with mental illness — not to alleviate the suffering of the mentally ill, but to protect other people from the mentally ill.” http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html
    ===========================
    PLUTOCRACY
    is greatest when government manipulates the economy. Government central planners, and the BIG SUPPORTERS grow bigger and bigger. The end product is a communist state where there is no difference between government and business.

    PLUTOCRACY
    is smallest when government confines it’s job to ensuring our unalienable right to pursue happiness.
    ——————–
    THE MAKING OF PLUTOCRACY, EXAMPLE ONE:
    Obamacare.
    A few thousand pages long.
    The regulations 10x longer.

    Now how in the hell is a country doctor going to read and comply with 10s of thousands of pages of regulations?

    How is a small insurance going to read and digest those constantly changes regulations?

    They aren’t. So Doc either quits his practice, or he moves to a large city clinic, which hires a bureaucracy, which contracts with a massive insurance company, which employees legions of non medical people (lawyers, accountants, lobbyists, and big buildings filled with bureaucrats to deal with the government bureaucrats who write and interpret the regulations at the other end of the monstrous system).

    End result: The country doctor, the small insurance company, are no more. BIG clinics and a couple MASSIVE insurance companies reign the nation.

    Big companies intertwined with government’s massive regulations = Plutocracy
    ——————–
    THE MAKING OF PLUTOCRACY, EXAMPLE TWO
    “Oh My God!!! The whole world’s financial system is going to collapse if some big banks, too big to fail, fail!!!”

    So government confiscates BILLIONS of tax dollars from hard working men and women and gives it to the bankrupt banks.

    And it takes BILLIONS of tax dollars from well run banks and gives that too to the bankrupt banks.

    What do the saved-from-bankruptcy banks do? They buy up smaller well run banks, competitors who bailed out them out a few months earlier.

    End result: BIGGER “Too big to fail” banks.

    Big companies suckling on the nipples of big government = Plutocracy

    1. 2.1

      Einar Nordgaard

      @ Jeff Chelf: just like i said here come the communists again

    2. 2.2

      Richard Ivans

      Some people can’t put forth a reasoned argument. That bothers them. So instead they throw out ad hominems and ridicule.

      That makes them feel superior.

    3. 2.3

      Einar Nordgaard

      Richard Ivans some people are so scared by socialism that every time they see their own flag they wanna color the red stripes green

    4. 2.4

      Richard Ivans

      Einar,
      Let’s play a game. Here are the rules. Please suggest better rules if these are unfair to you.
      1) I’ll name TWO countries where socialism has hurt the people.
      2) You name ONE country where socialism has helped the people.
      3) Go to #1 until someone quits.
      4) The quitter loses.
      5) If an opponents submission is trivial or wrong then that error should be pointed out.

      I’ll go first:
      1) Mao’s China.
      “..systematic human rights abuses… responsible for an estimated 40 to 70 million deaths through starvation, forced labour and executions, ranking his tenure as the top incidence of democide in human history.” Wikipedia. After Mao, when government industries were privatized, and economic freedom was increased, the economy boomed, poverty and starvation decreased.

      2) National Socialist Germany.
      Like in other strongly socialist countries, the government controlled what was made, how it was made, by whom, and at what price. German citizens and countries were forced into austere conditions, many tortured and killed. Millions burned gassed starved to death.

      YOUR TURN EINAR.

    5. 2.5

      Einar Nordgaard

      you still don’t wanna see the difference
      And yes Wikipedia is a very reliable source of information almost as reliable as your CIA, NSA, and FBI

    6. 2.6

      Richard Ivans

      Einar,
      Rule 5 allows you to point out my errors.

      If Wiki is wrong and Mao’s socialism isn’t responsible for starvation, forced labor and millions dead then please describe how Wiki and I are wrong.

      YOUR TURN EINAR

    7. 2.7

      Einar Nordgaard

      Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales is quite clear about the uses of Wikipedia. Asked, “Do you think students and researchers should cite Wikipedia? during an interview with Business Week in 2005, he replied, “No, I don’t think people should cite it

    8. 2.8

      Einar Nordgaard

      RULE 6
      get out off your chair and go into the world outside of your comfort zone do a work out, some sports and a lot of walking
      ps.

      klaarblijkelijk kan en wil jij het verschil tussen communisme en socialisme niet zien, laat staan weten.
      Keer op keer de simplistische gedachte dat in de door jouw genoemde landen, enigerlei van socialisme aanwezig was/is geeft aan dat je niet wilt inzien dat daar simpel weg dictators aan de macht waren.
      Net als dat er dictators aan de macht zijn in de landen die d.m.v. geld en materialen gesteund worden door de in jouw ogen geweldige overheden van kapitalistische landen

  2. 3

    Richard Ivans

    Einar,
    So you are saying Wiki is wrong…
    — Mao’s China was not socialist
    — Socialist China did not starve, force labor, kill it’s own citizens

    Maybe you want to use Mao’s socialist China as you submission in this game?
    ———————
    Einar,
    Your RULE 6 is a different game, a physical game, not part of this intellectual game.

    Tell you what Einar. You come to Michigan this winter. Bring your skis. We’ll race. Classic or skate, your choice. Whadaya say Norwegian?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlp281Hel3s
    ——————–
    But back to the intellectual game.

    YOUR TURN EINAR

    1. 3.1

      Einar Nordgaard

      read the rest of my reply as well 🙂

  3. 4

    Richard Ivans

    Einar,
    ——————–
    SOCIALISM
    Socialism requires government dictatorial powers over everyone, all property, and all economic activity.

    Only by dictatorial force will Einar and Richard give up their property and economic freedom to the state.
    ——————–
    CAPITALISM
    Capitalism requires governmental powers only over people who violate the rights of others.

    Under capitalism Einar and Richard get to govern themselves, do as they wish with themselves and their property. Only if E & R violate the rights of others will the government crush down on them.
    ——————–
    COMMUNISM
    A form of government that includes a socialist economy.
    Not all socialist economies are in communist countries.
    All communist countries have socialist economies.
    Socialist economies naturally push a country into a communist government.
    ——————–

    What do you say Einar classic or skate?
    Instead of my daughter in front, I’ll video tape you behind me this winter. I’m 64yo, so because of my greater experience in the Norwegian national sport I’ll let you start 30 seconds ahead of me in a 10K race.

    YOUR TURN EINAR IN THE INTELLECTUAL GAME

    1. 4.1

      Einar Nordgaard

      The Netherlands, Spain, France Norway, Sweden, Italy, Portugal, Belgium,England (labour party) etc etc
      all by dictatorial force 🙂
      3 strikes you are out

      and read the Dutch part mr. intellect

  4. 5

    Richard Ivans

    Einar,
    All of those (netherlands, spain, france…) are predominantly Capitalist countries, not Socialist.

    Sure each has some Socialism (socialized medicine, tax systems that redistribute wealth, social security insurance), just like the USA.

    But in each of those the citizens…
    — own PRIVATE PROPERTY.
    — can own a business that produces what they want.
    — can distribute capital and land as they wish.
    — own the means of production in their private business.
    — set a MARKET PRICE for what they produce.
    ..and citizens can come and go with their business as they wish.

    The community only owns a few of the country’s businesses.
    Private citizens own the vast majority of the businesses in those countries.

    SOCIALISM: “a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. ” dictionary dot com
    —————————–
    ECONOMIC FREEDOM IN CAPITALIST COUNTRIES YOU WRONGLY LABELED SOCIALIST
    (the higher the number the more economic freedom)

    76.2 USA
    http://knoema.com/atlas/usa/Index-of-economic-freedom

    75.8 UK
    http://knoema.com/atlas/United-Kingdom-of-Great-Britain-and-Northern-Ireland/Index-of-economic-freedom

    73.7 Netherlands
    http://knoema.com/atlas/netherlands/Index-of-economic-freedom

    72.7 Sweden
    http://knoema.com/atlas/sweden/Index-of-economic-freedom

    71.8 Norway
    http://knoema.com/atlas/norway/Index-of-economic-freedom

    68.8 Belgium
    http://knoema.com/atlas/belgium/Index-of-economic-freedom

    67.6 Spain
    http://knoema.com/atlas/spain/Index-of-economic-freedom

    65.3 Portugal
    http://knoema.com/atlas/portugal/Index-of-economic-freedom

    62.5 France
    http://knoema.com/atlas/france/Index-of-economic-freedom

    61.7 Italy
    http://knoema.com/atlas/italy/Index-of-economic-freedom

    Notice the more affluent countries tend to be near the top.
    Notice the more economically free countries tend to be near the top.
    Notice the more socialist countries tend to be near the bottom.
    —————–
    WESTERN EUROPE IS NOT PREDOMINANTLY SOCIALIST
    Look, I know you are your pals have been calling most of western Europe socialist for years. But you are wrong.
    ===================================
    REAL SOCIALISM
    The following countries are today’s predominantly Socialist countries. In these countries there is
    — collective ownership of capital and land
    — collective control of the economy
    — little private ownership, little economic freedom

    1.3 North Korea
    http://knoema.com/atlas/Democratic-Peoples-Republic-of-Korea/Index-of-economic-freedom

    29.6 Cuba
    http://knoema.com/atlas/cuba/Index-of-economic-freedom

    34.3 Venezuela
    http://knoema.com/atlas/Venezuela-Bolivarian-Republic-of/Index-of-economic-freedom

    Former Socialist countries like Nazi Germany and Mao’s China failed, and have been replaced with systems that afford the people more economic freedom, and more prosperity.
    ————————–
    YOUR TURN EINAR
    (and please use just one *real* socialism example)
    (remember the definition of Socialism – social ownership and control of the means of production, labor, land, capital. And lack of private ownership and economic freedom.)

    1. 5.1

      Einar Nordgaard

      travel richard travel and find out
      what political parties there are in all these countries
      again get out of your chair and give google a rest
      and do something worthwhile
      we don’t have a 2 party system!

      what do you know about socialisme?
      by the sound of it you het annoyed and start to google

      je weet er dus helemaal geen ene reet van af
      zit daar maar in je stoel en denkt dat je weet wat het inhoudt
      Jij hebt een oordeel over iets waar je verdomde weinig van af weet
      laat staat dat je het hebt mee gemaakt

  5. 6

    Richard Ivans

    Einar,
    Me? Travel? Find out what political parties there are?
    How about you, Einar?

    Here are just some of mine. Afterwards you give us yours.
    ——————
    POLITICAL PARTIES
    I was in the Young Democrats Club in high school. We debated the Young Republicans Club.
    In 1968 I was clubbed by the police during a rally where we were protesting against racist presidential candidate George Wallace.

    I have talked politics for hours and hours
    — in Rome with Italians,
    — in Chile with Chilenos,
    — in Kuwait with Saudis, Iranians, Lebanese and Kuwaitis.
    And here in the USA with people from *many* countries.

    A couple months ago I talked at length with my mother’s best friend, an elderly German woman.

    Her family was forced by the German National Socialist party to work in the Ukraine. Remember in Socialism the government owns the means to production, you and your work.

    When the Soviets Socialists ran the German army out, they forced this woman’s whole family into a socialist concentration/work camp. Remember in Socialism the government owns the means to production, you and your work.

    In Chile I worked with a woman whose husband knew Salvador Allende really well. Allende talked often to gatherings at his house. This friend and I talked at length.

    I also talked for hours and hours to my landlord and others who suffered through Allende’s rule. Allende was a socialist.

    A close friend of mine, a PhD economist, worked with the Attorney General of Mexico. That atty gen is his daughter’s godfather. That friend and I talk all the time. All he likes to talk about is politics.
    ——————
    TRAVEL
    I have spent month in Canada, weeks in Mexico, in the homes of friends and family. Citizens of Canada and Mexico.

    I lived and worked in Kuwait, a monarchy. Swam in the Arabian/Persian Gulf, near women swimmers clad head to toe in black. Heard the minarets call prayer 5x every day. Watched the Iraqi channel on TV – children singing, soldiers marching superimposed on images of Saddam Hussein.

    I lived and worked in Chile, during Augusto Pinochet, a dictator. And traveled to 8 different South American countries. In South America Socialism and dictatorships are the norm.

    I traveled in Western Europe 3x, staying 4 months total, through 9 different countries.

    None of my foreign work or travel was on organized tours. I avoid all tour guides and most tourist spots. I negotiate my own travel, meals, lodging, and diversions.

    In my overseas work and travels I’ve seen lepers, barbed wire, tear gas, fighting in the streets, police with machine guns, and real poverty. Extreme opulence too.

    I snuck into Brazil without a visa, and was later thrown out by the federal police.

    Thieves at Ipanema stole my wallet. I chased them for a good half mile, into their favela, where I punched and wrestled my money back. Have you ever been in a real slum, like a Brazilian favela?

    I’ve crossed several borders on foot, no air conditioned plane or bus. You know what manos arriba means? in the middle of the night when you can’t see who is saying it? they approached us with weapons drawn and pointing.

    I have dined and chatted with a Kuwaiti Prince and members of the king’s cabinet.
    Have you ever partied with a prince? or with a vice president of a major oil company? I have.
    Have you ever been told by a soldier with a machine gun to back away, you are too close to the dictator’s house? I have.
    Have you ever been told to quit taking pictures during a military parade? I have.
    On a separate occasion the authorities made me destroy my photos while they watched.
    I’ve vagabonded through mountains higher than any you have in Europe, and thru the driest desert in the world. Meeting local people and authorities all along the way.

    Train, boat, bus, on foot, and hitch hiking. Talking with locals, learning what their life is like, from their mouths.

    And Einar, I haven’t even touched on the work I did in overseas.
    ————————————
    Your turn Einar. What is your experience?

    Your arguing technique doesn’t show much experience..
    — name calling
    — trying to change the subject to my outdoor activities
    — trying to change the subject to my travels
    — trying to change the subject to my experience with world politics

    Tell us, is it true…
    — your outdoor vigor is lacking. you’re Norwegian yet can’t xc ski worth a damn
    — you haven’t traveled extensively
    — you’ve lived a sheltered life
    All areas on which you’ve arrogantly questioned me.

    Oh, let’s not forget your weak attempt to change the subject – Wikipedia is not to be believed in their description of socialism, communism, or history of Mao. It’s funny how you didn’t present an alternative source on socialism and Mao, one that differs from Wiki.
    —————————
    EINAR’S DISCUSSION TECHNIQUES, I THINK
    I tend to think your experience is mostly talking to other people who agree with you. And when you stumble upon someone who disagrees with you then you attempt to bully them with name calling, and other false bravado.

    That probably usually works, Einar. But not here.

    Not in front of whoever is still reading this. I’m probably the only one of Joe’s friends who dislikes socialism

    That is why you try to steer the conversation away from socialism and to name calling, wikipedia is wrong, then my outdoors activities, then my travels and experience.
    You change the subject but still seem to lose even when you change it to something you think you can win.
    Instead is just highlights that you can xc ski, even tho you are Norwegian. You haven’t traveled extensively, even tho you fashion yourself as a worldly man. You’ve lived a sheltered life, even tho you see yourself as a wise seasoned man.

    You seem to lose even when you try to change the subject.
    ————————————————

    Jeff Chelf,
    Help. Einar needs help here. Gives us your opinion on Socialism Jeff. Unlike Einar though, please read a little bit about Socialism so that you understand what it is before you start singing the praises of the lose of your right to private property and your labor.

    1. 6.1

      Einar Nordgaard

      Richard
      jij bent degene die totaal niet open staat om in te zien dat socialisme totaal iets anders is dat dat jij bent aangeleerd.
      Het probleem zit ‘m in het feit dat jij
      a: geen onderscheid kan maken tussen socialisme en een totalitair regime
      b: opgegroeid in een land waar het woord socialisme gelijk staat aan een enge ziekte
      c: je in een land woont waar geeste zieken mensen president kunnen en mogen worden, kijk maar een naar de republikeinse kandidaten.

      dit alles heeft er to geleid dat jouw kijk op socialisme en het verspreiden van welvaart er één is die als sinds de jaren 70 niet meer van toepassing is en voornamelijk tot frustratie leidt.
      het socialisme dat jij aanhaalt zijn voornamelijk totalitaire regimes die zolang het de VS aanstaat duur de VS gesteund worden. Zodra het de vs niet meer aanstaat verziinen ze van alles om het land binnen te vallen dan wel de oppositie wapens en geld te geven zodat er wederom een oorlog ontstaat.

      ps.

      ik ben geboren en getogen in Amsterdam

  6. 7

    Richard Ivans

    Einar,
    So, after name calling, questioning my outdoor vigor, questioning my political experience, questioning my travel and worldly experience, and losing on all those, you’ve now resorted to Dutch.

    I THINK YOU THINK..
    Hmm. Richard has shown me to be..
    -1- a man who resorts to childish name calling
    -2- a physically weaker man who spends too much time inside
    -3- a more politically naive man
    -4- a less traveled man
    -5- a less experienced man
    All while I questioned Richard on 2-5.
    I know, I’ll show Richard that I can fluently speak another language – I’ll write everything in Dutch.

    YOU WIN EINAR
    I’m not fluent in a second language. I can speak some Spanish, Italian, and only some essential phrases in Arabic.
    ———————-
    DUTCH PEOPLE
    Do the Dutch people FREELY give up 2, 10, 42, and 52% of their income to the state? so that the government can redistribute their money to other people?

    Or do the Dutch police FORCE you to give up your money?
    Pretend you don’t pay your taxes. Does the government let you run around free? or do the police come looking for you?

    The answer is: The police come looking for you.
    You Dutchmen pay 52% marginal tax only because you are forced to.
    ———————-
    CAPITALISM
    Your money, your property, is YOURS.
    The fruits of your labor are YOUR fruits.
    You are free to negotiate your own contracts because YOU own the means to production.
    ———————-
    SOCIALISM
    Your property is forcibly confiscated, for the benefit of others.
    Unless you are the “other”, in which case you are a leech, living off others.

    In Socialism your property is OUR property, not yours.
    So we can take OUR property from you,
    and redistribute it among us.
    ———————-
    DICTATORIAL GOVERNMENT
    Only dictatorial government can violate your God given unalienable right to your own property. Socialism violates that right. Socialism by definition must be dictatorial.
    ———————-
    SOCIALISM VIOLATES YOUR HUMAN RIGHTS
    – your right to property
    – your right to negotiate your own contracts
    – your right to pursue happiness (make what you want, pay your workers what you want, price your products as you want) (earn the wage you want, the sky is the limit)
    ———————-
    ALL GOVERNMENTS MUST TAX
    Capitalist governments tax..
    to get money for general welfare – roads, dykes, post offices, courts, police, military to defend the country from the Germans or Russians.

    Socialist governments tax..
    for the same reasons, PLUS to punish the successful people and to reward the unsuccessful people.
    ———————-
    WHAT IS SOCIALISM? which of these is wrong Einar?
    http://www.worldsocialism.org/english/what-socialism
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
    http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Socialism.html
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/socialism

    1. 7.1

      Einar Nordgaard

      Do the American people freely go to into war every other year?

      https://www.nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/
      instead of spending their money on real issues
      http://sitemaker.umich.edu/salas.356/usa_vs._world

      All you are saying is that the US fights / pays for every single war on a, in your opinion, socialistic way (taxes)

      SOCIALISM VIOLATES YOUR HUMAN RIGHTS??
      wtf Richard Human Rights explain that to all the blacks in the Shameless us

      SOCIALISM
      Your property is forcibly confiscated, for the benefit of others. Unless you are the “other”, in which case you are a leech, living off others. EHHHH living off others.
      You are broke!!
      http://www.usdebtclock.org/

  7. 8

    Richard Ivans

    Einar,
    Why are you avoiding showing us your definition of Socialism?

    Is it because every definition of socialism includes the government coming to your door with a gun?….

    GOVERNMENT: knock – knock
    EINAR: What do you want?
    GOVERNMENT: We want your excess wealth. You have too much. Other people need your money.
    (Einar reaches into his pocket and pays the government man holding the gun)

    Where is your definition of the Socialism you love, Einar? Where?

    1. 8.1

      Einar Nordgaard

      GOVERNMENT: knock – knock
      Richard: What do you want?
      GOVERNMENT: We want your excess wealth. to start another war just for making money.
      (Richard reaches into his pocket and pays the government man holding an M16)

      Where is your definition of the capitalism you love, Richard? Where?

      http://mens-en-samenleving.infonu.nl/politiek/88061-politiek-voor-dummies-politieke-stromingen.html

    2. 8.2

      Richard Ivans

      Einar, Did you father and grandfather make more money before or after the US Army freed them from the German National Socialists.

      THIS IS NOT A RHETORICAL QUESTION.

      Did they make more money before or after the US Army freed them?

    3. 8.3

      Richard Ivans

      Here is my, and everyone else’s definition of capitalism.
      Notice that none of the definitions of capitalism entail forcing people to give up their property so that another man can use it.

      https://www.google.com/#q=capitalism

    4. 8.4

      Einar Nordgaard

      Richard Ivans don’t even start about my grandfather he was away during the whole 2nd WW fighting the Germans from the beginning!
      But i you wanna believe the NSDAP was a socialist Party then there is no hope for you at all

    5. 8.5

      Einar Nordgaard

      Richard Ivans Socialisme
      Het socialisme constateert dat de mogelijkheden voor elk individu om zich te ontplooien ongelijk verdeeld zijn. Een belangrijke oorzaak van het verschil in mogelijkheden zit in de ongelijke verdeling van het bezit: rijke ouders kunnen hun kinderen veel meer bieden dan arme ouders. Het sleutelbegrip van het socialisme is gelijkheid. Als je gelijke kansen hebt, hebben de begrippen vrijheid en gelijkheid pas echt betekenis. Het socialisme wordt met name gekenmerkt door het streven naar economische gelijkheid en kritiek op de vrijemarkteconomie: Werkgevers mogen niet alle vrijheid krijgen die ze willen, de overheid moet regels en wetten instellen om de werknemers te beschermen van overmacht van de werkgevers.
      Socialisme komt voort uit de ideeën van Karl Marx. Tijdens de industriële revolutie, waarin arbeiders bijna geen recht en inkomen hadden, terwijl de werkgevers alles hadden wat zij wilden, publiceerde in 1848 samen met zijn vriend Friedrich Engels het Communistisch Manifest. Zij riepen de arbeiders op tot omverwerping van de maatschappelijke orde. ‘Proletariërs aller landen verenigt u. U hebt slechts uw ketenen te verliezen en een wereld te winnen.’ Om een eind te maken aan de kapitalistische uitbuiting van de arbeiders, moesten alle fabrieken in handen komen van de staat. Dan zou er voor iedereen werk zijn, naar eigen kunnen, en iedereen zou krijgen wat hij nodig had voor zijn dagelijkse levensonderhoud. Op basis van deze ideeën ontstonden twee bewegingen: de communisten: een groep met revolutionaire socialisten, maar ook de sociaaldemocraten: zij geloofden niet in een revolutie maar een geleidelijke opbouw van het socialisme langs de parlementaire weg, dus op een legale, politiek correcte manier. Volgens socialisten moet de overheid een actieve rol spelen. Door in te grijpen op sociaaleconomisch terrein, bijvoorbeeld om inkomensverschillen te verkleinen, kan de positie van zwakke groepen in de samenleving verder worden verbeterd

    6. 8.7

      Richard Ivans

      DON’T EVEN START ON YOUR GRANDFATHER?
      Why because you don’t want to answer the question?

      *****THE QUESTION*****
      Did your grandfather make more money before or after the USA freed his country from the German Socialists?

      Did the American Capitalist War Machine help or hurt your grandfather?

    7. 8.8

      Richard Ivans

      That Dutch rant up there is cute. What does it mean? other than that you can copy and paste?

    8. 8.9

      Einar Nordgaard

      Richard Ivans just copying your style

    9. 8.10

      Richard Ivans

      be specific. where did I simply copy and paste something without an explanation.

      Be specific in your criticism.
      —————————————
      And

      WAS YOUR GRANDFATHER MAKING MORE OR LESS MONEY AFTER THE USA CAPITALIST WAR MACHINE FREED HIS COUNTRY?

    10. 8.11

      Einar Nordgaard

      Richard Ivans I just told you not to start about my grandfather!

      The American Capitalist War Machine is still hurting people and not just outside the US
      i know it is hard for you to understand living in a country that spends more money on killing people than saving their lives.
      As a matter of fact they made a whole industry for it

    11. 8.12

      Einar Nordgaard

      And he made less
      by reasons you will never understand

    12. 8.13

      Einar Nordgaard

      and why those Caps all the time
      Are prescription glasses too expensive in the us?

    13. 8.14

      Einar Nordgaard

      btw what are you ranting about? wrong wiki page again?
      Do the Dutch people FREELY give up 2, 10, 42, and 52% of their income to the state? where did you get those percentages, dick cheney, or where they lying next to WMD?

    14. 8.15

      Richard Ivans

      okay 8, 13, 42, 52%
      http://www.tax-consultants-international.com/read/dutch-tax-rates-2015–individuals?submenu=4772&sublist=3275&subsublist=3300
      ——————————————-
      WMD? What does that have to do with Kim Kardashian? or Socialism?

    15. 8.16

      Einar Nordgaard

      btw DICTATORIAL GOVERNMENT
      Only dictatorial government can violate your God given ??
      “God” come on Richard don’t even

    16. 8.17

      Richard Ivans

      Don’t even what? Why are there so many things you don’t want to talk about? Talk about it Einar. Don’t be afraid.

    17. 8.18

      Einar Nordgaard

      why should I talk about a none existing “person”

    18. 8.19

      Richard Ivans

      Yes. Socialism *is* Godless.

      You see in America we believe in a Creator.

      You still haven’t read our Declaration of Independence have you. Political scholars the world over have studied it intensely.

    19. 8.20

      Einar Nordgaard

      hoogte verzamelinkomen maar inkomen niet hoger dan belastingtarief
      – € 19.822 36,5%
      € 19.822 € 33.589 42%
      € 33.589 € 57.585 42%
      € 57.585 – 52%
      and it is progressive income tax

    20. 8.21

      Richard Ivans

      So the bottom tax bracket is not 8%?

    21. 8.22

      Einar Nordgaard

      Richard Ivans we?? in America we believe in a Creator.
      still talking about walt disney?

    22. 8.24

      Einar Nordgaard

      So it wasn’t dick cheney, or George W. Bush that started the Iraq War is was GOD in who you trust
      sorry my bad

    23. 8.25

      Einar Nordgaard

      and a tax rebate on mortgage interest of max 51%

  8. 9

    Richard Ivans

    .
    Einar,
    To understand America you have to understand our 1)Declaration of Independence and 2)Constitution.

    I’ll bet you have spent hours, even days, in your lifetime, talking to other people about how America is bad. Most of those other people have never read those two documents either.

    Not you, but scholars worldwide study them intensely.
    The Chinese students protesting the Chinese Socialist government in Tiananmen Square fashioned their movement after our Declaration of Independence. And they didn’t build a Koninklijk Paleis, they built a Statue of Liberty.

    You can easily read both in under one hour.
    Both are only a few pages long.
    —————
    DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
    ..describes how we kicked out the King. We have no King Wilhem, no Queen Beatrix. We have absolutely nothing to do with Kings. We never wanted a king. We never allowed a king. The whole concept of a king is foreign to us. To us all men are created equal by God. NO KING ever in America.

    Our Declaration describes the purpose of government. Government’s purpose, it’s ONLY purpose, is to ensure individual rights, God given unalienable rights, among those are the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
    —————-
    CONSTITUTION
    The supreme law of the land. It makes laws that implement the Declaration. It is laws designed for a government that fulfills its purpose – to ensure individual rights, God given unalienable rights, among those are the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
    —————-
    WAR
    ..is a function of EVERY government. Without national defense the government can’t ensure your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    Paying for war is NOT Socialism. Capitalist, Socialist, Monarchist, Pure Democratic, Pure Dictatorships all must at times wage war. Spending taxpayer money for those wars doesn’t make them all Socialists.
    —————-
    BLACK AMERICA
    When the government of the USA follows its Declaration of Independence and Constitution there is no violation of the rights of blacks. Today we have a black president, and a black man is leading the Republican candidates for the presidency.

    Canada has never had a black president. Nor has Germany, Norway, Sweden, or Belgium. No black prime ministers or kings in any of the Northern European countries, countries that used to be heavily involved in the slave trade, the human trafficking business.
    —————-
    SOCIALISM VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS
    Yes, Socialism violates the human rights to property, contracts and the pursuit of happiness. Capitalism does not violate any rights, it ensures those rights. See Declaration of Independence above.
    —————-
    NATIONAL DEBT
    Yes, America has an out of control national debt, because of Socialist programs like student loans, home loans, corporate welfare, social welfare and a multitude of other programs where the government spends money on special interest groups – the “to each according to his needs” socialist stupidity.

    Our Constitution expressly forbids the government to spend money on those special interest groups. It forbids Socialist “according to his needs” spending.

    YOUR KINGDOM’S FREEDOM ISN’T FREE
    It is expensive for America to defend The Kingdom of the Netherlands from the Kaiser, from Hitler, from Stalin, and now from Putin.
    ———————
    btw, the Kingdom of the Netherlands has a pretty big national debt, in spite of paying for only a tiny military. The reason? Socialist spending.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

    1. 9.1

      Einar Nordgaard

      but… the Kingdom of the Netherlands beat Chinese Taipei 7-4. 🙂

    2. 9.3

      Einar Nordgaard

      what a very social way of spending tax money
      you just got love it 🙂
      you want another example of capitalism:
      http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/07/lessons-in-capitalism-from-kim-kardashian/375252/

  9. 10

    Richard Ivans

    You are out of control Einar. Calm down. Kim Kardashian? The Internationale?

    Slow down and organize your thoughts better. Then present your thoughts in a clear rational way. You’ll just look like a scatterbrain if you simply throw out provocative posts willy nilly.

  10. 11

    Richard Ivans

    Did your grandfather make more or less money after the American Capitalist War Machine freed his country?

  11. 12

    Richard Ivans

    If your grandfather suffered I am truly sorry.
    I had relatives who suffered during WW2.
    —————————-
    The caps are for emphasis that is needed. I’m hoping you will read those at least, because you don’t seem to be reading the other parts.

    You see, I’m sure you STILL do not understand our Declaration of Independence.

    You STILL do not understand that Socialism violates your God given right to property, your God given right to make your own contracts with other people, your God given right to pursue happiness as you see fit, without government interference.

    You STILL do not understand that Capitalism gives you freedom to do whatever you want (providing of course that you don’t violate the rights of others)
    —————————–
    AMERICA DOES NOT PROFIT FROM WAR
    Freeing Holland cost us millions of dollars, billions in today’s money. We didn’t prosper.

    We spent billions keeping Europe safe from Stalin, Kruschev and the others. We didn’t prosper.

  12. 13

    Richard Ivans

    Okay, instead of your one grandfather, how about the other? or your grandmothers?

    Where they better off or worse off after the American Capitalist War Machine freed them from the German Socialists?

  13. 14

    Richard Ivans

    I don’t know why we are on the Iraq wars. This is suppose to be about Socialism. But here goes anyway.
    ——————-
    FIRST IRAQ WAR
    The Kingdom of the Netherlands and many other countries participated in the 1st Iraq War:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_the_Gulf_War
    ——————————-
    SECOND IRAQ WAR
    The Kingdom of the Netherlands and many other countries participated in the 2nd Iraq War:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq
    ——————————–
    Both times The Kingdom of the Netherlands participated on it’s own, because the King or whoever runs the government there now decided to participate. Neither Bush nor Cheney forced them to participate.

  14. 15

    Richard Ivans

    Why did you ask if I was Canadian, Einar?

    And again, did your other grandfather, or grandmothers, make more money before or after the American capitalist military warmongering machine freed them from the German Socialists?
    ——————
    Look, Einar, I answer all the questions you pose, no matter how off the topic. Why don’t you answer mine?

  15. 16

    Richard Ivans

    Einar Nordgaard said,
    ——————————————————-
    “Medication time for you again Richard
    Get it while you still can afford it
    PS.
    Joe is still spot on and enjoy Trump”
    ——————————————————-

    Einar,

    1) Why did you ask if I was Canadian?

    2) Were your other grandfather and grandmothers better off after Americans died freeing them from the National Socialists?

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